Category: Let's talk
Pride in one's country.
I was thinking earlier about that subject, and thought I'd post a topic here about it in the hopes that some of you would give me ideas of what you think. Bear in mind though that I am writing this as mainly a stream of consciousness, and so it isn't at all researched.
I'm not sure what I think to be honest. Or perhaps it's just that I can't articulate it well. Personally I'm not proud of my nationality, be it Scottish, English, Welsh or British, (I can claim any of those due to my birth place and parentage), and so don't understand it very well at all. In trying to do so, I thought I'd break it down first of all, so here goes.
The country to which you belong is, from one viewpoint, a group you belong to, so let's think of it in terms of a smaller group, the family. I am proud of certain members of my family because of their achievements, and who they are stuff like that. My niece is an accomplished Cellist, my sister is a wonderful lady with some great qualities such as her sense of humour, drive and determination to get through what she has, and so on. My father was a great carpenter, my mother a great cook, and so on and so on. These are qualities and skills that people possess though because they possess them, not because they happen to be related to each other and me. So does that make my pride in them futile? Not sure.
So taking that small example, can you really have pride in your country. I can't. I honestly can't think of anything that English, or British people, have done that I can be proud of, and say, yeah, go England! Etc. Due entirely to the fact that if they'd been American, Pakistani, Arab or Swede, who's to say they wouldn't have acomplished those things anyway. Nor can I be ashamed of the things that its residents and natives did throughout history, (wars, human sacrifice, contributing to conversion by the sword, the slave trade and others), as I have been in the past, for the same reason. People do the things they do because of their beliefs, prejudices, and education etc, not because they are English, French, Canadian or Martian lol.
Perhaps though I am missing the point entirely. So to the point of this post, what do you guys think? Do any of us have any justification to be proud of our countries? If so, why? Or if not, why not?
I'm not proud of my country. Case in point: our current administration... Need I say more?
I am, however, proud of citizens who live here, just not of the country as a whole. I think there's a difference.
I do, may be fortunately, disagree with you guys on this, somewhat. I think there are nationalities, I know for a fact people of a certai nation share characteristics (of course you'll find examples to the contrary, but I still think, as a whole, I often find national characteristics in people). And only in certain places would certain things happen. The English make the best comedy and most of the best music, in my opinion, they have a certain way of speaking and thinking, sometimes a bit highly of themselves and the world, but I like their doggedness and witty style. The Germans are actually very likable but can be very cold and detached, the myth that they love order is, to me, not very much a myth at all, everything has to be proper and right. But instead of tracing national stereotypes I'm mainly making the point I think such a thing as a nation is more than merely made up concept. It is people with similar believes, usually same language, that share a history and live in the same area. In the world of globalization those characeristics may slowly be lost and the nation, as we know it, disappear. Americans, for instance, are lacking quite a few of these things, being such a relatively young nation and such a big one.
But, to answer the question, I think you will only get nostalgic and proud of your country once you spend at least a year somewhere else. Then you start to understand the little things, the occasional soda, the silly phrases the way people talk, greet each other etc, from your home land and, usually, you start missing those things.
I am proud of my land and nationality, I do not assume we're cleverer or better than anyone else, but amongst these people and on this strange, exotic, harsh and wild land is the place whre I belong. I am against wars and aggression but I would stand up and lay my life down for my f family, friends and country if the need arose, without fear or doubt (of course I wouldn't know but I really honestly thinkn so).
What bothers me endlessly about the American pride is that always seems to imply that they are superior to the rest of the world "land of freedome" "greatest nation on earth", why does yourpride have to be so arrogant. You can love your country without putting others down, you don't only love your family because you find they are smarter or prettier than the neighbours, you don't love your children only when they come top of their class in school. May be I am taking a narrow view and have my opinion affected by the small portion of Americans I've met and the politicians, but this bugs me to no end.
End of ranting, for now, time for a beer me thinks.
cheers
-B
I found it really difficult to formulate an answer on this issue, as I can see both sides of the coin.
Having left Ireland 5 years ago now to come and live in England, I can certainly accept the view that one can be proud of ones nation. I love to hear a comment on the Irish, even if it does only concern how many pints an Irishman can pour down his neck in one sitting. But it's what we're famous for! I love it when people comment on the Irish culture, our hospitality, our lovely, green country.
However, where I find myself differing from Wildebrew's opinion is here: I am proud of the individuals who make up my nation as a whole. I cherish the effort, the contribution, the input of each and every individual who makes up the nation of Ireland, and am proud of them for who they are, and what they make our country. I don't really know how you can have country pride. After all, a country in its purest definition is just a massive great hunk of land. What has land ever done, without help, that warrants pride?
When it comes to laying down ones' life, i'd do it for my family, no questions asked. For friends, i'd first berate them about how much of an unfriendly thing it is to expect me to do *grin*, then, if they'd given me chocolate in the last week or so, i'd happily go to the headsman's block fo them. But country? no thank you. Nation maybe, but only if it would accomplish some greater good, but not my country.
FM
Well, I guess I did not get my point across well, for I am not disagreeing with that statement. A nation is never more than the sum of its individuals, but you learn to appreciate what they do over time, especially when you leave.
The things I noticed were the language, the national candy, the handball team and coverage, the silly news such as a sheep being born in February as opposed to May making all the biggest newspaper head lines, the food, your friends, the language etc.
Of course it is individuals who make up all of these things and your love can only be tied to people you know, I think it's very hard to love a concept as the concept is so hard to define and can be defined in so many ways. What, for instance, is freedom?
In similar vein I know have grown to love Charlotte North Carolina too, even if it is not my country. I like its people, their willingness to help, the restaurants, the street system which, for once, is accessible etc. I think one tneds to love one's familiar situation or people and take pride in associations more than anything else, and that makes perfect sense.
I find this post to be extremely interesting, not only because of it's topic but because of the issues raised in it. For one, I agree with much, though not all, of the national stereotyping. I also worry about globalisation and the effect it's having on the world as far as culture. Take music. Everyone's trying to sound like America and the West and they're losing their culture in the process. Same with food. That upsets me no matter the country. Everywhere has something special and it's sad to see that go. On the other hand, it can also have some benefits like civil rights. many good points here. Most of you know my story. I was born in America but have no pride for it. That isn't to say that they haven't done some good things like women's rights, prochoice, homosexual rights, handicap rights and some inventions here and there. But overall, I don't like their arrogance either. Yes, I know I'm a little ethnocentric, so no need to go there. I consider myself a Hellenic (Greek) patriot. I know it may sound strange, because I haven't been there, but I'm not completely in the dark either. I'm aware, as much as I can be from the news and the people I know, of the corruption, the poverty, the bad politics, the insanity that is Greece. But I'm also aware of our accomplishments, those in the past, like creating and using our knowledge of democracy, poetry, art, science, the Olympics, etc etc and those in the present, like our wonderful food and music. But no one is perfect. Every place has it's flaws, and there are times when I just cry with frustration at all the tings going on in Ellada, but I'd never trade Greece for anywhere in the world. I may choose to stay in America with my bf if that's how things turn out, but my heart will always belong there and if there's ever anything I could do to help my country, I'd gladly do so. It's not just where you're born that makes you. I didn't just wake up one day and say "opa! I love Greeks!" It took alot of experience, of co-mingling and of growing. But they've earned my love and respect, as individuals and as a nation. That comment about missing the little things is so true. When I'm away from Greeks in general, I can't stand it. I miss the language, the food, the little inside jokes that only we would understand, talk about life etc. I also disagree with the comment about land. For me, Hellas is sacred land. It's the home of The gods, it's where people died and fought for freedom, it holds thousands of years of rich history and I'll be damned if anyone tries to take that from us. We as humans will die, but the land will surpass all of us and it should be respected. I think that's why people are willing to give their lives for it, for future generations. So when I say I love my country, I mean all of it. That doesn't mean I love everything that goes on in it but anyway.
I mostily feel myself identifying here with Wildebrew, however I do think the U.S.A. is the greatest country on earth. I wouldn't knock you if you thought your country was though. I hate the direction our nation is taking in many ways, as the current administration has stripped freedoms from us and such things, but would I leave this place to live somewhere else? I seriously doubt it, unless it got really super bad. As I said though, if you don't think your country is the greatest, find the one that you think is, and live there. Lol! That's your right as a person, and mine, too.
Bravo and hugs Jesse! I like what you've said, particularly the last part. so many people seem to think that if you don't love the country you're born in it's some kind of bad thing. I wish more people felt like you. And you're right about the freedoms being stripped away in America. Very sad.
Wow, you guys rock! So many great replies here. Thank you! Keep 'em coming.
Cheers,
Simon
Hi
Jessee, this raises my curiousity. Do you think your counttry has to be the greatest in the world for you to love it, if you realized Spain was a much greater country, would you love Spain rather than the U.S. even if you have no other association with Spain?
And what do you mean "greatest country on erth", by what standards do you judge it, especially seeing as you've never lived anywhere else?
I guess I'd just like to know more *grin* not saying you don't all the right in the world to think so, I disagree but I still thik the U.S. is a great country.
I don't think Iceland is the greatest country on earth, but it's my country, like it or not, and that's what I'll always associate with.
I'm in fits of laughter here, trying to imagine Ireland as the greatest country on earth! Could anyone be foolish enough to fall into this trap? Alcoholics maybe, but any other, functional member of society?
No, I love Ireland because it is where I was raised. I have a lot of happy memories in that place, and I am, whether I like it or not, an Irish Person by proxy. I was brought up in their ways, I practice their culture (no, i'm not drunk right now, but thanks for asking), I live by the unwritten rules of their society. I don't think I could change my allegance *or however you spell that*. I've been living in England for 5 years now, and I still don't look on it as home. You know what? Every time I fly home, and I step off that plane, I just know i'm home. The air smells right, the ground feels right, the people speak the way they're supposed to, act the way you would expect. Would I change that, just because it's a tiny, insignificant little blip on the map whose only claim to fame is that it produces raging, raving alcoholics in more numbers than anywhere else in the world? No, I wouldn't, I couldn't! And why? Because it's my country.
I think it's the greatest country on earth because it's my country. It's purely subjective, you see. In actuality, it probably isn't the country it nce was, but it's my country, therefore, I personally think it's the best. There really doesn't have to be any other rationale behind it, either. haha!
So what's wrong with it being your country, and not the best? Why does it have to be better than any other?
Yeah, I don't understand why people think just because a country is their country it is better than anyother place in the world. I find that a little bit dangerous way of thinkiing, can easily lead to assumptions of moral superiority, being always right in international disputes and the feeling one is above international law. In fact we've seen too much of this, especially from the U.S. in the last couple of years.
Hmm, WB, where would the world be if the American foreign minister, or any other diplomat chose to not comment on the situation between russia and georgia?
It's the best cuz it's where I live! Many others are self absorbed, but secretly. I choose to be open about my self-absorbedness, if that's a word. Lol! Hve fun with that!
Self-absorbedness, love it. And this is exactly why I put this topic up, to see what others thought. Some great views expressed, and expressed well here. Loui, you posted here, what do you think? Considering your affinity with Cornwall, where you come from, and Cornwall's attempts at some sort of autonomy, where does your sense of patriotism lie? As for me, I think I'm starting to formulate a view, bearing in mind what some have said here. This is good stuff! Keep it coming guys.
Cheers,
Simon
lol I'm too ethnocentric for my own good. I mean, in my bedroom, the first thing you see is a huge Greek flag painted on my wall. In the kitchen, it's Loutraki bottled water and all sorts of different things in the cabinet. In the bathroom, it's Greek soap, shampoo and hair conditioner and in my bag I have three komboloia (worry beads), my flag pin, some Greek coins (don't ask me why cause it's not even used there these days), and George Karelias and sons cigarettes. Plus, I think we're the best because, well, we are, in the kitchen at least. come on, who owns most of the diners in America? Hell, who started them for that matter? Look up KK or Kandy Kitchens and you'll see what I mean. Ok, I'd better run away now before you guys throwing stuff at me. *smile* That, or drink all my Nescafe!
See, I could never say America is the greatest country, because to say anything is greatest is a statement of comparison, and I truly can't compare this country with any other unless I travelled out of the country to another one. I do not trust any news source to tell me about other countries because the news is about filling time between advertising breaks, not about telling the absolute, unfiltered, unbiased truth. Others can choose to do or see things differently, and I'm OK with that, as I don't claim my point of view is the right one. It's just mine.
I've been reading this thread for awhile, and trying to formulate a good answer. Each time I've started writing one, I delete it, cuz I'm not really sure how to express what I'm thinking. I'm still not sure I've expressed it well, but here goes.
Years ago, I would have said I'm not proud of my country. I didn't like most of our policies, how we do things, etc. I wouldn't have characterized myself as very patriotic. Then September 11 2001 happened, and all of a sudden I started to think a little differently. I was sad, angry, and outraged that we'd been attacked the way we were. For the first time, whether I agreed with someone's politics, religion, etc, I realized that we were all Americans, all in the same danger right then, and needed to stick together. For the first time I actually had emotion rise in my chest when i heard our national anthum, or the Pledge of Allegiance, things that before I didn't give a darn about, to be honest.
Today I would say I'm stil not patriotic in the extreme. However, I do have a better sense of country than I used to. I still don't like a lot of our politics, foreign policy, etc, but at least in this country we're free to have an election to change that. America is not perfect, by any stretch. I'm not even prepared to say it's so much better than other countries, because as Godzilla put it, I'd have to travel to other countries to make a comparison. I've been to other countries on brief visits, but never long enough to really get a grip on life there. I do like learning about other people, cultures, and languages. But I will say that I am very glad I was born in America, and for the rights we do have.
Soviet, well, how has the American diplomats comments changed anything? I don't see Russia backing out, but that's irrelevant.
I think Jessee has a point, it depends how you think about it. It's really subjective vs objective way of thinking. He he thinks it's the greatest country in the world for him that's fine but if he thinks, objectively, this is the greatest country in the world for everyone that, to me, would be arrogant. Just like one would say one's girl friend or wife or parents are the best in the world and they mean it from their point of view, that's attachment and natural, something they should feel, but if they keep going on to other people that their partner is the most beautiful an cutest without expressing clearly that the enthusiasm is more of a sign of their love for the person rather than their objective view of the person's beauty it gets very annoying and they come of as self absorbed and, well, irritating. I still don't see why you have to think where you live or who you are with is the greatest, you just have to feel that this is where you belong, see earlier comments regarding the question whether you would love your kids only if they got the best grades at school, no, I hope not, you love them because they're your kids. Same goes for your country (or if you get attached to another country than, well, that country).
One can actually get attached to more than just a country, this really goes for all the places you assocaited with. I'm very fond of Yale and of Charlotte, NC, because I spent years in each place and I grew to really like them and consider them my home, my society for a while and they'll always hold a special meaning to me, so patriotism is all good but it's a very abstract notion, I think what you really love is your family, friends, loved ones and a place you associate with happy memories or great achievements, I think it's hard to love ideals and abstraction and lofty ambitions, but it's easy to love thinks you know.
I think you're right yet again. I love Greece as a whole but Piraeus (a port city in Athens) will always be special to me because it was the birthplace of my favourite kind of music and the subculture that grew along with it. I also love Kerkira (Korfu) because my bf was born there and Syros because my favourite singer/musician was born there. In America, I love Astoria because it's an all-around great place for me whenever I go there. I don't think that you have to love the politics of your chosen country to be patriotic. Mine drive me up the wall sometimes, as I've said.
See, after spending time among the Cornish and learning Cornish and deciding that I am a Cornish Australian, due to my background, I feel that it's not really a question of country, but a question of culture.
I have cultural pride for both Australia and Cornwall. I love my language, my music, my history, but I don't think that = my country right or wrong. However globalisation is breaking down barrriors as we speak, so it's becoming larger rather than smaller. The EU being one such example, so I'm not sure that all the small groups should break away completely.